Violence is of course relative. I’m 100 kilos and really strong, so most don’t pick fights with me. Were I woman or older, I’d be a lot more afraid.
I’ve seen some really aggressive behavior in Europe. The worst train station in my experience is Paris Montparnasse, where homeless people have actually pulled the ear buds out of my ears to demand money from me. In Hamburg though, a former partner got assaulted by a homeless man right next to me in the train station: the man grabbed his hiking pack (while he was still wearing it) and tried to wrest it off him. Instead pulled them both to the ground, my partner on top of him.
So, I don’t know. Desperation is the same everywhere, I think.
I was visiting Frankfurt a couple of years ago and harassed frequently and even followed several times during my stay. I ducked into a laundromat to try to get rid of one man and the poor laundromat owner had to deal with him to help me slip away. I found Frankfurt to be equally as bad as many cities I lived in in the US.
I was involved in leftist organizing for a while and the idealism that you name regarding restorative justice and no policing also frustrated me. I have also survived a lot of violence, a few times when the cops needed to be involved, and while it’s part of my spiritual practice to forgive my perpetrators internally and wish for them to get better, I really doubt most of them will. How does society humanely handle people who routinely commit violent crimes? I have no answer to that. I think there is so much fantasy around non-violence within liberalism and this seems to trickle info aspects of leftism (although leftists tend to be more realistic about systemic violence).
Curious if you noticed a common through line, if any, to the people who did respond to your help and improve? I also wonder if Hoovervilles where similarly violent and desperate as the homeless situation seems to be now.
I unfortunately think it's exactly as AA and other groups say. You have to want to change, which means you have to admit you need to.
No amount of support and resources around you will do a thing if you don't want this. Of course, if you do, then you've got a much better chance than someone who doesn't have those resources, but again, the first step is on the person, not the support.
I related a story elsewhere about my most recent experience (just before Covid) in response to this, since it was on a DC metro car and struck me as somewhat similar. A man was behaving in erratically, was fairly aggressive and making threats. A couple of nearby cars had completely emptied out at the previous station; it was pretty clear why. He was playing with a knife in the pocket of his jacket; I caught a clear glimpse of it the second time he walked past me.
I'm large, very strong, and have a fair amount of experience fighting. If I have to subdue someone who is armed, the best possible circumstances are to have the initiative and engage before the weapon has been deployed. But violence is ugly, chaotic, and extremely risky. I chose to remain standing in one of the doorways and keep an eye on him while avoiding direct eye contact. If I acted, the best case was spending the rest of my night with the police and the tears that come with hurting someone (even if I felt it was necessary); the worst case is I get stabbed to death on a DC Metro car.
When the metro car stopped at the last station, they locked us on the train with him for several minutes while the police prepared to rush him. That was the worst part of the situation - he could see the police gathering, so which way would he break? Would the knife stay in his pocket? Would he attack someone else or me? Would he turn it on himself? In the end, he was quickly surrounded and subdued by the police, in perhaps what was one of the best possible outcomes for that situation. And luckily for me, my evening ended only on the cusp of violence this time.
In hindsight, my decision turned out fine. On a different day, maybe my decision is different. Maybe he brandishes his weapon a little more openly, maybe his threats are different, maybe he's touching people instead of just talking, maybe I'm there with someone else - my wife, a friends' kids, an elderly relative - and I decide I have to act. Maybe I'm killed or have to live with killing someone & I'm sent to prison when a jury doesn't agree with my judgement. Maybe if the variables swing a little differently on his side, he opts to attack or kill me or someone else. Maybe I'd be writing now about my shame - I saw a knife, knew I could act, and chose to watch and wait.
In between the ideological nonviolent purity of many on the left and the gun-as-magical-talisman on the right, those who deal with or have dealt with violence know that every choice is fraught with its own dangers and possible terrible outcomes. Every society has had its way to dealing with violence; dealing with demons. It's really weird that for all of our refusal to acknowledge the unseen, in the US we address it with truly magical thinking.
This is the most levelheaded take on the Neely death that I’ve read. I appreciate the compassionate, clear-thinking discussion and the context provided around mental health, homelessness and violence. It really feels like such an intractable, tragic issue :-(
At the tender age if 55 I have started training in Jiu Jitsu. I’m learning how to defend myself in a way that is more likely to avoid seriously injuring my attacker...kicks and punches being unnecessary and many times even counterproductive. And, it is practical for facing bigger and stronger attackers. On top of that, Jiu Jitsu can be helpful for folks who have PTSD. Check out the nearest Gracie training center!
Of course, in the US, as anyone who reads the news knows, people who have homes and are leading superficially ordinary lives may start spraying bullets all over the mall for no understandable reason. Most of them seem to be sober when they do these things. I guess we're democratizing random violence here. It's not just for the poor and desperate anymore.
To say nothing of chemical and pharmaceutical Jeff. 🙏
I met a former meth user who said something similar - that a door had opened for her forever that never should have been opened.
Violence is of course relative. I’m 100 kilos and really strong, so most don’t pick fights with me. Were I woman or older, I’d be a lot more afraid.
I’ve seen some really aggressive behavior in Europe. The worst train station in my experience is Paris Montparnasse, where homeless people have actually pulled the ear buds out of my ears to demand money from me. In Hamburg though, a former partner got assaulted by a homeless man right next to me in the train station: the man grabbed his hiking pack (while he was still wearing it) and tried to wrest it off him. Instead pulled them both to the ground, my partner on top of him.
So, I don’t know. Desperation is the same everywhere, I think.
I was visiting Frankfurt a couple of years ago and harassed frequently and even followed several times during my stay. I ducked into a laundromat to try to get rid of one man and the poor laundromat owner had to deal with him to help me slip away. I found Frankfurt to be equally as bad as many cities I lived in in the US.
I was involved in leftist organizing for a while and the idealism that you name regarding restorative justice and no policing also frustrated me. I have also survived a lot of violence, a few times when the cops needed to be involved, and while it’s part of my spiritual practice to forgive my perpetrators internally and wish for them to get better, I really doubt most of them will. How does society humanely handle people who routinely commit violent crimes? I have no answer to that. I think there is so much fantasy around non-violence within liberalism and this seems to trickle info aspects of leftism (although leftists tend to be more realistic about systemic violence).
Curious if you noticed a common through line, if any, to the people who did respond to your help and improve? I also wonder if Hoovervilles where similarly violent and desperate as the homeless situation seems to be now.
I unfortunately think it's exactly as AA and other groups say. You have to want to change, which means you have to admit you need to.
No amount of support and resources around you will do a thing if you don't want this. Of course, if you do, then you've got a much better chance than someone who doesn't have those resources, but again, the first step is on the person, not the support.
And your essay on what else is possible is in process? 🌷
I related a story elsewhere about my most recent experience (just before Covid) in response to this, since it was on a DC metro car and struck me as somewhat similar. A man was behaving in erratically, was fairly aggressive and making threats. A couple of nearby cars had completely emptied out at the previous station; it was pretty clear why. He was playing with a knife in the pocket of his jacket; I caught a clear glimpse of it the second time he walked past me.
I'm large, very strong, and have a fair amount of experience fighting. If I have to subdue someone who is armed, the best possible circumstances are to have the initiative and engage before the weapon has been deployed. But violence is ugly, chaotic, and extremely risky. I chose to remain standing in one of the doorways and keep an eye on him while avoiding direct eye contact. If I acted, the best case was spending the rest of my night with the police and the tears that come with hurting someone (even if I felt it was necessary); the worst case is I get stabbed to death on a DC Metro car.
When the metro car stopped at the last station, they locked us on the train with him for several minutes while the police prepared to rush him. That was the worst part of the situation - he could see the police gathering, so which way would he break? Would the knife stay in his pocket? Would he attack someone else or me? Would he turn it on himself? In the end, he was quickly surrounded and subdued by the police, in perhaps what was one of the best possible outcomes for that situation. And luckily for me, my evening ended only on the cusp of violence this time.
In hindsight, my decision turned out fine. On a different day, maybe my decision is different. Maybe he brandishes his weapon a little more openly, maybe his threats are different, maybe he's touching people instead of just talking, maybe I'm there with someone else - my wife, a friends' kids, an elderly relative - and I decide I have to act. Maybe I'm killed or have to live with killing someone & I'm sent to prison when a jury doesn't agree with my judgement. Maybe if the variables swing a little differently on his side, he opts to attack or kill me or someone else. Maybe I'd be writing now about my shame - I saw a knife, knew I could act, and chose to watch and wait.
In between the ideological nonviolent purity of many on the left and the gun-as-magical-talisman on the right, those who deal with or have dealt with violence know that every choice is fraught with its own dangers and possible terrible outcomes. Every society has had its way to dealing with violence; dealing with demons. It's really weird that for all of our refusal to acknowledge the unseen, in the US we address it with truly magical thinking.
This is the most levelheaded take on the Neely death that I’ve read. I appreciate the compassionate, clear-thinking discussion and the context provided around mental health, homelessness and violence. It really feels like such an intractable, tragic issue :-(
I feel the same, Amy. Well written and compassionate article.
At the tender age if 55 I have started training in Jiu Jitsu. I’m learning how to defend myself in a way that is more likely to avoid seriously injuring my attacker...kicks and punches being unnecessary and many times even counterproductive. And, it is practical for facing bigger and stronger attackers. On top of that, Jiu Jitsu can be helpful for folks who have PTSD. Check out the nearest Gracie training center!
Of course, in the US, as anyone who reads the news knows, people who have homes and are leading superficially ordinary lives may start spraying bullets all over the mall for no understandable reason. Most of them seem to be sober when they do these things. I guess we're democratizing random violence here. It's not just for the poor and desperate anymore.
I also wonder what the people who want Daniel Penny arrested and convicted plan to do with him afterward. send him to prison? Execute him?